DEBORAH NORVILLE: I don't think anyone can even imagine what that period after Miss America was like for you. How'd you get through it?

VANESSA WILLIAMS: After everything hit, I was still an optimist and I said, "Well, I'm still going to work and I'm still going to get an agent." And I did. I guess it was just blind faith or stupidity or something. But I really believed that I could turn it around.

NORVILLE: I think you probably did the smart thing by just getting the heck out of the limelight.

WILLIAMS: Um hum.

NORVILLE: Pulled back and said, "I'm going to work on my own.

WILLIAMS: Right, right.

NORVILLE: And said, "I'll come back when I'm ready."

WILLIAMS: I didn't really run away from anything. I did an off-Broadway show and a TV movie of the week, and I was happy to get the work. I had to pay the bills. But I didn't want to do anything I felt was exploitative-although I would be in situations that I thought were totally fine and they would end up exploiting my name anyway.
But for the past seven years, it's been hard to be taken seriously. I have this excess baggage walking in the door with me. You know-people want to see what I'm all about and they want to talk about "the incident." It's very awkward.

NORVILLE: Is your barometer the day a story comes out that doesn't say those two little words, "Miss America"?

WILLIAMS: Yes, and I think that in time it will definitely be behind me. You know, the more I accomplish, the more they have to add to the tide. In fact, just the other day, what did I see? It was in one of those rags-it said "Pop Star Vanessa Williams." So it's happening slowly but surely. But God, it's been seven years since I resigned. And to me, that's a long time.

NORVILLE: Do I hear you saying, "I wish I'd never entered"?

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah. I mean, if I could do it again, I'd not do it-because I didn't need to do it. On the other hand, there are aspects that I'm very proud of. I got a chance to perform on the Tonight show, I got to perform with Bob Hope when he had his special. I flew a T-38 airplane down at an Air Force Base in Texas.

NORVILLE: And you were the first black woman to win what essentially had been a white girls' pageant.

WILLIAMS: Whoa! It matured me in a minute! I really didn't know what I had gotten myself into and what I symbolized. I was a symbol not only to racists-I got death threats and hate mail-but also to some blacks who just didn't think I was black enough, or worthy of being considered any kind of pioneer.

NORVILLE: Like, "Why don't you wear your hair in a 'fro?" and-

WILLIAMS: And I would think, "Who are you to tell me what I should look like? This is the way I was born. I happen to have green eyes-so what? My parents are just as black as yours, and I have had equally as black an experience."

NORVILLE: How much notice did you have that the Penthouse pictures were coming out?

WILLIAMS: One week. I found out Friday the 13th....

NORVILLE: Oh great. What luck!

WILLIAMS:Yeah. And a week later I resigned.

NORVILLE: I'm guessing that your folks didn't know anything about the photos until then.

WILLIAMS: No. But they were very supportive. My dad said, "Well, Ness, you really blew it this time."I said, "Yeah, I did." And he said, "You know, we love you. So don't even question." And that's all you need-to know that your parents are there and your family is there. Everyone else didn't really matter.

NORVILLE: But weren't you devastated by it all?

WILLIAMS: Well, there were a lot of things that did hurt and you don't forget. But probably the good thing about it was that Miss America wasn't something I'd really desired to be. If someone said I could never act or I could never sing or never be on the Broadway stage, that would have devastated me more. Those were my real aspirations.

NORVILLE: And if none of this had happened, you wouldn't have met Ramon.

WILLIAMS: He was my knight in shining armor. I was the damsel in distress and he was this super public relations man who put my life in order. He was my escape, my rescuer.

NORVILLE: Which came first, the love interest or the business relationship?

WILLIAMS: Business first and love almost immediately-because it was a distraction. All this craziness was happening, and it was great to be in love and have somebody protect me.

NORVILLE: Did you ever ask, "What is his motive? I mean, why does he care for me?"

WILLIAMS: I think he was more hesitant. I was only 21; he was 33. And he was thinking, "Well, this woman really likes me, she's so vulnerable, am I taking advantage of her? Will people think I am?" So I think he was probably a lot more cautious than I was.
You know, I was just so anxious, I think, to make it all right and just camouflage everything.

NORVILLE: The 12-year age difference between the two of you-is that ever a problem?

WILLIAMS: Well, the relationship has changed. Hopefully it's more of a partnership. I was unknown when I met Ramon-he had all the connections. We've worked very well to accomplish similar goals. Now that we've built a marriage and had two kids, I'm back. I'm not feeling as insecure, not as "thrown to the wolves." I'm more in control ofmyselfand where I want to go.
We've been seeing a counselor for about a year, and the therapy is, um-m-m . . . it helps you realize what makes you tick as an individual. And with Ramon, it was a Catch-22: I was saying, "Handle everything, be my manager," and on the other side, I was saying, "I can do it." It was a no-win situation. It took an outside person to show that to me.

NORVILLE: Was it difficult to go into therapy?

WILLIAMS: Practically all of my girlfriends have been through therapy. It was very comfortable making the move because it was constructive, as opposed to re-constructive.
Last year I was a mother of two, 28 years old, with a career with a lot of pressure-and it's nice to have a third opinion saying, "It's all right to take time for yourself."

NORVILLE: Therapy gave you permission?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think so. And when I'm feeling the best, that's when I can give the best. But the counseling has helped not only with our relationship, but with myself-the reason I am the way I am, my defense mechanisms.

NORVILLE: You strike me as well-grounded and confident, but not cocky. What turned the corner for you?

WILLIAMS: I don't even know when the turbulence subsided. But I definitely think having kids grounded me all the way. The record companies say, "Don't mention your kids a lot-your image, your image!" I certainly don't adhere to that. I love my kids. I'm proud of them and I think more women, more people, respect me for having kids and trying to juggle everything and being real and tangible, as opposed to being that in-tangible star, which a lot of other famous people are.

I love seeing mothers like yourself be able to have a career and be a mom. Yes, it is more stressful. There are times when I want to give it all up and just say, "I want to be a mom.

But it's the little things that kids remember. When my child is sick, work doesn't count. I don't care what I cancel. If someone has a fever, she needs Mom to fall asleep on. I don't ever want to have to go through that guilt about being a mother-even though there's always some guilt that comes with being a mother.

NORVILLE: What parenting tricks have you found work for you with Melanie and Jillian?

WILLIAMS: I think patience is the key. And letting your child express herself. And through counseling, I've learned that the mirroring concept really helps. For instance, when your child is scared, sit down with her and say, "Wow! That is really scary. It's almost like having a friend rather than a disciplinarian.

NORVILLE: Do the kids know Mommy's famous?

WILLIAMS: Famous, I don't know. They know they see me on TV They hear my records on the radio. But it's no big deal-they know that some dads and moms sing, some dads and moms do something else. They come to the recording studio all the time. They know that Mommy gets some neat perks at her job, because when I was doing Another You with Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder, I brought Melanie and Jillian on the set and they saw Gene and said, "Oh! That's Willie Wonka!"

NORVILLE: So even when you're working you try to be a full-time mom.

WILLIAMS: Well, we live a normal, everyday kind of life. Weekends, we go bike riding-we just got some bikes with those little seats in the back. Or we go to the beach.
I try to stick my business into the middle of the day. And I try to make dinner every night.

NORVILLE: And how do you decide your menus? I hate that!

WILLIAMS: [laughing] Menus? Whatever's in the fridge and calling my name is what I end up making. The kids' favorites are lasagna, chicken, macaroni and cheese-when I get desperate, I just call up and get a pizza!

NORVILLE: What would you do if, when she's 18 years old, one of your daughters says, "Mom, I want to enter the Miss New York pageant"?

WILLIAMS: She wouldn't do it. I mean, it wasn't something that I ever thought about. It was kind of a fluke.

NORVILLE: Well, what if the fluke happened to her?

WILLIAMS: I'd probably advise her not to. It would just be too much attention and she would never have the normal-I mean, she doesn't have a normal life anyway. But I would advise her not to. Seriously.

NORVILLE: Okay-now the really important question: After two kids, how do you look so good? I finally lost the last of my baby weight, but in a million years, I couldn't look like you! How do you do it? What's your routine?

WILLIAMS: Pilates. It's a machine originally built for injured dancers to rehabilitate their muscles. It's a 6- or 7-foot bed that slides back and forth with springs and pulleys. It's sort of like rowing, but there's tons of different extra stuff you do. You start out doing legs and you work the pelvis and the arms and you do abdominals. It's not aerobic, but for me it was the best way to lose inches but not build bulk.

NORVILLE: Do you watch what you eat?

WILLIAMS: No. I really don't. I don't eat a lot of heavy meats, but I pretty much eat what I want, desserts, whatever. And then when I feel bloated-you know, we all gain a few pounds-I just cut back.

On stardom: "I don´t want the pressure of
having to be a Madonna or a Janet Jackson.
You have to forfeit part of your life."

NORVILLE: You said before that the record companies are often hounding you about your image.

WILLIAMS: It's a tough business right now. The economy is so bad that people aren't buying records. I mean, if Prince and Michael Jackson can't get more people into the record stores. . . . And you're constantly trying to prove yourself again and again. I'm not at the point where I can really relax and say, "Yes, I've arrived." But I'm not as defensive as I was in the first go-round.
You know, I hated the rejection of going for roles and not getting them. I hate the acting profession because you have to deal with constant rejection.

NORVILLE: Is that why you're concentrating more on music?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, and also because I have more control there-of the music and my image and what I want to do with my career. Acting, especially for black women-there are very few good roles. You're playing an airline stewardess or a bartender.

NORVILLE: You're never the attorney pressing the guy to the wall-

WILLIAMS: And even if you are the attorney, the male is always the lead. You're always the second fiddle. And especially in this age, the leading men are young, single, powerful black men-

NORVILLE: And black men don't really want to share with black women?

WILLIAMS: I don't know, but they can pick whomever they want. And usually a mother of two is not someone who's very desirable. I've been up for a lot of parts with leading men who are very prominent and big marquee values, and I think they're threatened by a female, or another actor, having-

NORVILLE: Celebrity in your own right.

WILLIAMS: Right. They don't want someone who will take any of the limelight from them. Like Eddie Murphy, whose film I just read for. And you just beat yourself up: How did I do in the reading? What did I say? Did I wear something sexy enough? But I'm really burned out having to live my life through other people's vehicles.
The film industry is basically run by white males. The only black female I can think of who's really in control is Oprah Winfrey.

NORVILLE: Ultimately, where do you want to go in your career? Is the record career enough?

WILLIAMS: Is it ever enough? One of my biggest dreams is to do a Broadway show-I've always wanted to. And I'm anxious to tour. And I've been nominated for four Grammys-which surprised me, and I was very flattered-but I'd love to win one. And I'd love to have tremendous success in terms of sales.
But it's funny: I want all these things, but I don't want the pressure of having to be a Paula Abdul or a Madonna or a Janet Jackson. I obviously would love the power and the money of that superstardom. But you have to forfeit part of your life. And I never want to do that.
Who's hot? Who's not? I've already been in both columns. I enjoy the simple things: being with my kids, driving them to school, going to the mall. I want to always enjoy life and be able to walk down the street with my kids.

Vanessa´s
tips on
staying...

...organized
"We have two calendars. One´s got personal appointments, the other has the business schedule. It keeps us from scheduling work when something important - like one of the girls´ recitals-is coming up. But then I had to postpone having my wisdom teeth out for a month because the work calendar was so full! We do my itinerary on a weekly basis - otherwise I forget to do important things!"

...calm
"Breathing helps a lot. Breathe in through your nose and exhale through your mouth. Let your body clue you in to what´s happening with your mind: If your neck is pinched, say "Why am I tense?" Doing things for yourself - a dance class, a brisk walk - reduce stress. And I´ve just discovered facials - what a wonderful way to relax!"

...happy
"All the people I surroung myself with are positive, energetic people who love life, love kids and love other friends. I try to keep negativitiy out of my life."